According to various individuals familiar with a recent federal court judgment, a federal judge had ruled that former Vice President Mike Pence must testify before a grand jury regarding talks he had with Donald Trump before January 6, 2021.
According to one of the sources, however, the judge noted that Pence might still choose not to respond to inquiries about his behavior on January 6, when he was acting as the Senate’s president for the certification of the 2020 presidential election.
The decision by US District Court Chief Judge James Boasberg in Washington, DC, is a significant victory for special counsel Jack Smith, who is leading the Justice Department probe. Pence still has the power of persuasion.
Before the congressional certification vote, Pence was under intense pressure from Trump and his followers to thwart the intentions of Congress to certify Joe Biden‘s victory. Pence was responsible for overseeing the certification proceedings as Senate President.
Investigators looking into the attack had a great interest in Trump’s contacts with Pence in the days preceding the uprising. Pence declined to appear before the House committee looking into the rebellion on January 6.
Still, members of Trump’s inner circle testified to the committee about a contentious phone discussion Trump had with Pence the day of the incident in which he insulted his vice president.
Pence narrowly dodged the mob as it headed to the Senate floor, but the two did not interact during the attack on the Capitol, during which many of Trump’s followers passionately sought him out.
Nicholas Luna, a former special assistant to Trump, told the committee he remembered Trump calling Pence a “wimp.” Luna said he recalled something to the effect of Trump saying, “I made the wrong decision four or five years ago.”
And Julie Radford, Ivanka Trump’s former chief of staff, recalled Ivanka Trump telling her that “her dad had just had an upsetting conversation with the vice president.”
Radford said she was told that Trump had called Pence “the P-word,” referencing a derogatory term.
For his part, Pence has relied chiefly on a memoir he authored last year for his public remarks about his conversations with Trump in the days leading up to and following the uprising.
In the book, Pence said that Trump warned him in the days leading up to the incident that since he was “too honest” to try to alter the election results, he would incite the rage of hundreds of thousands of people.
The former vice president also said in the book that when Trump “mentioned challenging the election results in the House of Representatives for the first time” in a phone call on December 5, he requested from his general counsel a briefing on the Electoral Count Act’s processes.
On December 21, at lunch, Pence tried to persuade Trump to follow the counsel’s team at the White House rather than outside counsel, but the then-president rejected the idea.
And Pence wrote that Trump told him in a New Year’s Day phone call: “You’re too honest,” predicting that “hundreds of thousands are gonna hate your guts” and “people are gonna think you’re stupid.”
“Mr. President, I don’t question there were irregularities and fraud,” Pence wrote that he told Trump. “It’s just a question of who decides, and under the law that is Congress.”
Big Win For Special Counsel
Smith is looking into the Trump-allied attempt to rig the 2020 election. Earlier this year, Smith summoned Pence to give testimony and provide documents.
Days after the subpoena became public knowledge, Pence and his advisors suggested that the former vice president would oppose the subpoena in light of the Speech or Debate Clause of the Constitution, which protects lawmakers from some law enforcement actions related to their legislative duties.
“I am going to fight the Biden DOJ subpoena for me to appear before the grand jury because I believe it’s unconstitutional and unprecedented,” Pence said at an event in February.
He has suggested that – because he was also president of the Senate during the January 6 certification vote – the constitutional clause covered the conduct that investigators are looking at.
The legal dispute has taken place behind closed doors.
As he has said publicly, Pence’s allegations are regarded as new. Many legal experts disagreed with his reasoning, including retired judge Michael Luttig, a prominent conservative lawyer who openly suggested that Pence certify the election results.
Pence has resisted the subpoena even as he has stuck to his decision not to obstruct the legislative certification of Biden’s victory as Trump had urged him to.
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